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Harjit: I know, because you're so fancy and have to use words like cold open.

Mariam: I feel so official when I hear words like cold open. I'm like, "Wow. I know I'm part of something big now."

Harjit: I know.

Mariam: Fancy.

Harjit: You fancy. I made it in life.

Mariam: I made it. Okay. Hello, everybody. Welcome to "Bundle of Hers." My name is Mariam Asadian. I am a second-year medical student at the University of Utah. If you're wondering why my voice doesn't sound familiar at all to you, it's because I have never been on this show. This is officially my first episode as part of the identity series and I'm so, so excited.

Today, we're going to be talking about assimilation. And I'm very excited to have our very own Harjit Kaur as the guest of honor for our episode. Hi, Harjit. How are you?

Harjit: I'm so excited. I'm really excited that I'm a guest on this episode, and I'm even more excited that you're a "Bundle of Hers."

Assimilation and the Pressure to Conform

Mariam: So I wanted to do this topic with you because we've talked about this topic before. I think when we first met, we talked a lot about . . . We talked about a lot of deep things, and one of those things was assimilation. And I think this is something that I wanted to cover because growing up first-generation, it's something that I felt a lot growing up, this pressure to assimilate.

Like I told you when I first met you, my mom is from Afghanistan. My father is from Iran. We grew up in a small city in what I call the middle of nowhere, Georgia. But it was just middle Georgia. And it was a really interesting experience growing up. There was a lot of pressure to assimilate. Even before I could really define what assimilation meant, it was something that I could feel before I could really put it into words.

Assimilation, to me, felt like shame when my parents were speaking Farsi outside of the home, fear when people asked my parents or me where we were from. This pressure to conform, even from a really young age, you start to realize that there is that pressure, and especially in a place like the middle of nowhere, Georgia.

Harjit: Yeah. Mariam, I think that even though I grew up in West Valley City, which is considered a "more diverse," ethnically and racially diverse city in Utah, I still felt that pressure as well. So, to me, assimilation means this aspiration towards whiteness, like how close we could get to become white people.

And you would think that that's kind of not the notion that you'd have when you're growing up with so many kids from different backgrounds, a lot of immigrants, first-generation immigrants, second-generation immigrants. You would think that that's not something that's there, but it's definitely there.

I remember learning the word assimilation when I was in college, actually, for my ethnic studies class and I was like . . .

Mariam: Oh, my gosh. Me too.

Harjit: Yeah. I was like, "Oh, my gosh. That's exactly what I felt like." I just felt like I had to be like everybody else, right? I had to just be like everybody else because it would make me feel the same and I'd have the same happiness, because I wasn't feeling happiness. There was this constant pressure of I'm different. And when you're younger, being different is something that's scary. Not something that you should celebrate.

Assimilation as a Measure of Safety

Mariam: Yeah. I had a very similar experience. I don't think I ever critically talked about the term assimilation or even defined it until I got to college. I didn't know that there was a name for the feeling, essentially.

Growing up, there's this tendency to want to conform, like you mentioned. And I think it's not just about wanting to be the same as everybody else. I mean, I think that's part of it, right? Growing up, I wanted to pack similar school lunches that my classmates had, and not the beautiful Persian meals that my grandmother spent hours in the kitchen making. I was like, "No. I want a PB&J." I feel so much guilt for that now.

So part of it was like wanting to fit in with my classmates and my peers, and I think there's a natural tendency for that. But the more that I think about it, the more I realize that I assimilated a lot out of fear and a want for safety.

Just even thinking about, going back to what I mentioned before, when people would ask my parents where they were from, I just remember being 6 or 7 years old and associating Middle Eastern or being Muslim, because my family is predominantly Muslim, as bad. And just from a young age, knowing that and feeling that in my body, feeling that anxiety of when people asked, "Where are you from?"

And so as I got older, as much as I'm ashamed to admit this right now, as I got those questions growing up where I did . . . Those were questions, first of all, that I tried to avoid. I didn't want people asking me where I was from. I didn't want people asking what languages we were speaking and things like that, because it went deeper than shame. It was fear. I was afraid people were not going to accept us. I was afraid that my family would be in danger if they weren't conforming.

Harjit: And you felt like people would see you differently and you didn't want . . . in a sense, that "less than," right?

Mariam: Yes.

Harjit: I think that's something I think about a lot too.

Mariam: Yeah. It's really interesting to experience that as a child, right? Kind of going back, we talked about how we were able to critically think about assimilation in college. We define it. But as a child, it's such a surreal experience going through something that you can't even name.

And that was something I didn't know how to talk about growing up. I thought that was just an accepted part of living. I didn't know what it was like to live with a community of other Middle Eastern or Muslim people because we didn't grow up around a huge community or even a lot of our family members. And so that was really interesting. Definitely a very isolating feeling as well.

Harjit: Mariam, when you were growing up in, you say, middle of nowhere, Georgia, can you paint a picture for me. I've never been to Georgia. What does the community look like? What are activities done in the community, things like that?

Mariam: So disclaimer, I really should not . . . Georgia is not all terrible. Georgia is actually a really fun place to be. I obviously hold it very near and dear to my heart, but where I grew up, I grew up in a city called Warner Robins, Georgia. I call it the middle of nowhere, Georgia, but in reality, it was a small city. It was an Air Force town.

It was a very predominantly Christian city. That was very obvious. It's still very obvious. You drive a mile down any road, you see a lot of different churches. So that's kind of the dominant culture there, I think, is Christianity. Going to church on Sunday and then going to lunch after it was such a huge tradition in the city that I grew up in. Knowing the people that you went to school with also went to your Sunday school, right? So a lot of that connection existed for us. That's kind of what Warner Robins is.

Harjit: Yeah. I think that kind of paints a picture. When I think about assimilation, I know that there are a lot of different categories of assimilation, right? There's, Are you assimilating to the language? Are you assimilating to the way you dress up? Are you assimilating to what you eat? Are you assimilating to what you carry in the world?

And even though, again, I grew up in West Valley, I think it's interesting because my assimilation was a lot in education and the way I presented myself and how I felt like it would allow me to "get a place in higher education." That's not the first thing that I think of when I think of assimilation, but I think that's kind of where we felt. And it makes sense.

Our generation, I will say, is doing better now with not assimilating as much, granted a lot of the things that you can see are more accepted, right? It's cool to eat ethnic food. It's cool to dress ethnic. It's cool to talk ethnic now. The way the kids maybe now in high school assimilate is different than the way we used to and the way our parents used to.

I remember in our parents' generation, it was very much, "Don't speak the language. Always speak in English, like English words, English names, everything." And now it's very . . . because it's cool. All of a sudden, it's cool.

The Importance of Community in Embracing One’s Authentic Self

Mariam: Yeah, I could see that for sure. When I was younger . . . I get so mad at my younger self sometimes because now . . . I talked about when people asked me back then, "What are you? Where are your parents from?" I would kind of avoid or deflect. But now, whenever I introduce myself to people, I'm like, "I'm Afghan and Iranian." I think when I met you, before I even said my name, I was like, "I'm Afghan and Iranian." I feel so much pride about who I am.

But I think you mentioned this really interesting point. It is almost cool now to be able to speak different languages and grow up with different cultures in the household versus back then . . .

I mentioned that I feel really angry towards little Mariam because she was very ashamed of where she came from and didn't want to talk about those things. But then I think about how difficult it was for us to grow up in that environment in those circumstances.

Things didn't change for me until I got to college and I had a community where I could talk about these things. When I saw other people who were first-generation or came from different backgrounds that didn't conform to this dominant white Christian culture who were able to talk to me about their experiences, and even if they came from different backgrounds, it's like, "Oh, I've experienced that too." I know now that that feeling has a name. That was incredibly validating.

So it's cool to talk about diversity now, but it's also kind of like a shared trauma that we have growing up. It was not always cool, at least where I grew up.

Harjit: Oh, definitely. I'm seeing this as it's acceptable now to the people "in power" because it's like their approval is okay with it and that's why we're okay to do this.

Yeah, I remember when I was growing up, in some ways I felt like other people were "more assimilated" than me. And I'm sorry to say this, but you all know me from "Bundle of Hers," I've grown a lot, but I used to be like, "That person is acting so white." Now I feel bad because I understand. Now I understand that it was a protective measure, right? They were protecting themselves. They "acted white" so they could feel safe and they could feel like they could do what was meant for them to do.

The truth is someone could say that about me too, because I have assimilated as well. And I still struggle with it. Don't we struggle with it still?

Mariam: Yeah. For sure. I mean, I think it's this tricky balance, right? We want to embrace and be proud of our culture. Simultaneously, we live here, right? We grew up here. That's going to definitely influence how we identify in our experiences.

And it's so funny that you mentioned that too, Harjit, because even yesterday, for all of our listeners out there, Harjit was like, "Mariam, no offense, but I can tell you grew up here." And it was this really funny moment, but I've gotten comments from other people like, "Oh, Mariam, you act so white."

It's something that's interesting to think about, because I guess in some ways, one could say, yes, I do act more Americanized the way that I speak, especially . . . I think about this a lot when I'm at school, here in the med school. I don't talk to my peers like I talk to my family. Obviously, it's different, but even just noticing I'm a different person when I'm at school versus how I interact with my community, even with you, Harjit, our friends, versus how I interact with my family. It's different.

And I think the easy thing to say here is when I was little, I conformed. I assimilated out of safety, and then in college I rejected it all, but I don't think it was fully rejecting. I think it was more just being critical and aware.

Harjit: Yeah. I think it's beautiful you say that, Mariam, because I think there's an important distinguish- . . . Sorry. You all know me, how I'm not good with words, whatever. Like I was saying, there's an important distinguishing factor, right? One is assimilation, and one is who you are with these complex identities.

I am Punjabi, but I'm also American. I grew up in West Valley, but now I'm in Salt Lake City and I spend most of my time here even though I still live in West Valley. I think that not everything we do is assimilation either. A lot of it could just be our American sides coming out, right? And I think that that's the important thing to remember.

I think assimilation just feels like you're doing something out of fear whereas . . . And you've touched on that a bit. It is super complicated.

Generational Trauma and Parental Influence on Assimilation

Mariam: I do think it would be interesting to talk about . . . I mentioned assimilation as a measure of safety, and I think when we're young, we learn that. That was something that I learned pretty quickly at a very young age, but also I think it's something that we're taught by our parents. At least in my experience, it was something my parents taught me.

Harjit: Violence was very different towards them than it was us, right?

Mariam: Yes. I think there's some level of generational trauma for sure. I know that my parents, having to go through the immigration process, that was a very difficult and very traumatizing process. For anybody who's not familiar, it is very difficult. And I think they were faced with a lot more blatant racism and Islamophobia, to be honest, than my brother and I experienced.

Harjit: Especially with legal process, like getting papers, getting a green card, getting a passport, becoming a citizen.

Mariam: Yeah. I think about this a lot of the time when I think about how I was raised, like why my parents raised me the way that they did. I think there was a lot more pressure from my parents for us to conform. They wanted us to be able to relate to our classmates. They wanted us to have the same opportunities. And I think what that meant for our parents was not wanting to speak Farsi too much outside of the home, right?

This is so interesting. I mentioned that Georgia is a very Christian state. That was felt so much by my family to the point where they wanted us to be raised Christian and not Muslim. I went to Sunday school. I wasn't raised Muslim like my parents were, like the rest of my family was.

Harjit: Oh, so they were Muslim before?

Mariam: Yeah.

Harjit: Oh, really?

Mariam: Yeah. So my extended family and my parents, they grew up Muslim. In Iran and Afghanistan, they grew up Muslim. Coming here, especially when they had my brother and I in Georgia, where we were from in Georgia, there wasn't a huge Muslim community. My parents were more concerned at the time with us fitting in and being safe and having some type of community. So they put us in Sunday school with the intention not necessarily for us to be Christian, but just to have that.

Harjit: Like, have a community.

Mariam: Yes. And be like the rest of the people we were going to school with who were predominantly Christian, right? And it's interesting because it was protective. It was very much so, "We want you guys to have this community here."

I've talked to my mom a lot about this. When we were in church, we felt so isolated. We knew we were different. It wasn't just because we were the only Middle Eastern family there. The ways we were talked to in church, people knew we were different. It just felt off. And I remember just not feeling comfortable being in that space. It kind of had the opposite effect of what my parents had intended.

That decision to put us in Sunday school was really born out of this trauma that my parents had gone through coming here, immigrating here, and kind of facing the legal system and a lot of racism.

And just growing up, even the pressure to assimilate was felt everywhere outside of the home, but it was really interesting to feel it inside of the home too from your parents.

Harjit: I'd like to extend on that experience from my perspective. We also go to Gurdwara or Sikh Temple every weekend. And I think there, they could fully embrace their Punjabis/Sikh selves. So I think because I had that experience every week, it solidified in me that it's okay to be who I want to be, even though, like I said, I would judge other people for being "white."

And I realize that I did some things too. They were just not as blatant, because it was more in an educational space that I assimilated. I felt like going to temple every week really helped me ground myself in my community and be proud of those identities. So it was much easier for me to springboard into being open with my identities when I was in medical school.

I think that when I first met you, I don't know if I'd say, "Oh, my God, she's so white," because I've evolved in my thinking of all of this too, right? I think that's an important point to make. We should give ourselves grace and also people in our community grace, because this is just a part of who we are. Our parents did that out of fear and also to give us opportunities that our peers had as well.

Mariam: Yeah. I try to have a lot of grace, especially for my parents, because I think a lot of immigrants who come here really subscribe to this belief that in America anything is possible, and "I want to give these opportunities to my kids, but the small price I have to pay is I have to put my head down when racism happens . . . when somebody says something racist."

I can't tell you how many times I've heard from my family . . . If somebody says something racist or sexist, I'm going to say something, but I can't tell you how many times people have told me, "No, Mariam, just put your head down. Work hard. You don't have to worry about this stuff."

Harjit: Right. "Just move forward."

Mariam: That's the price I have to pay to make it here. If that's what assimilating is, is keeping your head down and not calling out the things that are problematic, that made our parents' lives difficult, to me, that's where I draw the line.

And it's a difficult conversation too because this is kind of just this ongoing thing I talk about with my mom. And I realize our parents didn't have the resources and the tools we had. You and I talked about defining assimilation and talking about it in college. My parents didn't have that opportunity, right?

So I also think a lot about . . . there's a lot to be said about what tools and resources our parents had. So I try to have some grace and compassion towards their experience in how they raised us too, because I think they were doing the best that they could with what they had and what they thought was protective.

Harjit: I agree with that. And I think overall when it comes to assimilation, there are a lot of social and structural reasons that it exists, right? It's a very complicated topic, but I think it's another tool of power that we always have to remember is carried by certain identities that have the power. I think that us constantly having these conversations and trying to reject assimilating, but rather just being who we are, is something that helps us. We're speaking out about it now. It's an evolving conversation. I just am really excited that we were able to talk about this today.

The Ongoing Process of Navigating Assimilation and Embracing Change

Mariam: Yeah. It's a conversation, I think, that's ongoing, right? Even being a medical student, I mentioned this before, but for our lovely listeners out there, I introduced myself as Mariam. That is my name, that's my Persian name, but what a lot of people don't know is that my legal first name is Megan. And for a lot of my life outside of the home and school, I went by Megan. A lot of people, a lot of my friends from Georgia, still call me Megan.

Harjit: What caused that shift?

Mariam: The shift to start going by Mariam?

Harjit: Yeah.

Mariam: I was always called . . . My name is Mariam. That's my middle name. My Persian family calls me Mariam. I think last year I started to kind of . . . Harjit, I think it was around the time that I met you and our whole crew of friends. This is where I think community is such a huge thing in being your most authentic self, because I always felt like I couldn't embrace my Middle Eastern self in a lot of different spaces that I occupied. In medical school, there isn't even a huge community here of people who come from a Middle Eastern background.

But I think when I met you guys, you guys were very curious about where my family was from and my cultural upbringing, and I think that's when I started to feel more comfortable enforcing Mariam. Whereas in the past, my partner calls me Mariam, my mom calls me Mariam. With my friends, I was a little bit more like, "Oh, you can call me either." Now, I feel a lot more comfortable enforcing . . . Not enforcing, but asking people to call me Mariam because it just feels . . . I feel like I can be more authentic with people.

Harjit: Mariam, when I first met you, I remember your name was Mariam and sometimes people referred to you as Megan. I was like, "Oh, my gosh, that's the same person."

Mariam: People still do.

Harjit: Yeah. I just wanted to also say the biggest reason I'm so excited you're joining "Bundle of Hers" . . . I know that this is your identity series about assimilation, but I do want to say that you are very vocal about change, like being critical and changing and evolving. And I think that was apparent in this episode.

But I think these voices are needed, because people will want to continue to assimilate if they feel like that's the only voice in the room, right? And this is why all of us speak out and talk about who we are so that people feel like it's okay to be that way. We don't see a lot of messages and signals that it's okay to be "who you truly are" until it's all of a sudden cool.

I do see that and I'm excited because I always . . . I would have never known that about you unless we had this conversation.

Mariam: Yeah, and I appreciate you saying that. I think ultimately what it boils down to is identity is so complex. We all have different relationships with our upbringing and how we were pressured to act growing up. And similar to you, sometimes I'm like, "Oh, that person is acting so assimilated," or, "They're not embracing their culture. Why are they like this?"

But at the end of the day, having had that personal experience of why it felt so important to conform growing up, it is very complicated and I think it's always important to be aware and have these conversations.

Harjit: Yeah, definitely.

Mariam: I'm really glad that I was able to have this conversation. I think it's been a long time coming. Like I mentioned before, it's really complicated, complex, and identity is such a huge thing and such a huge part of this series. And so I'm super happy that I was able to do this with you, Harjit.

There's one more identity series episode next week, and that's going to be Lina's. So please stay tuned for that. It's going to be a really good one.

And thank you for listening to "Bundle of Hers." You can find us . . . Harjit, where can you find us? Wherever you listen to podcasts.

Harjit: Yeah, wherever you listen to podcasts. This is something that you will get used to saying. But please find us at bundleofhers.com. We are on all podcasting platforms. You can also follow us on Instagram @bundleofhers. Please leave a comment on some of our cute pictures and also see what's going on in our life. I'm so excited that so many of you all are going to join us. It's going to be so fun. Bye, friends.

Mariam: Bye.