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Scot: Troy, I've got a question for you.

Troy: Yeah.

Scot: Have you ever heard of intuitive eating? And if so, would you consider yourself an intuitive eater?

Troy: I have not heard of it before you had brought it up. And so I don't know if I consider myself one or not.

Scot: All right. Mitch, how about you?

Mitch: I have heard of it. I am very suspicious and skeptical of it. But that's just me coming into it. My intuition tells me to get taquitos on the way home on Maverick. That's what I do. I have to fight against my intuition. So we'll see how it goes.

Scot: I mean, people on the web or on social media talk about intuitive eating, how it's such a great thing, but I'm the same way. I just came off of Christmas and my intuition told me to do a whole bunch of things that I don't think are sustainable.

Troy: Seriously. That's what I'm wondering. Is it the same thing as impulsive eating? If it's impulsive eating, that seems like a bad idea.

Scot: All right. This is "Who Cares About Men's Health," information, inspiration, and a different interpretation of men's health. And maybe you've heard of intuitive eating. We're going to find out what it is. Is it a legit way to eat? Will it help you lose weight or is it a recipe for turning one Troy into two Troys weight-wise? I'm Scot.

Troy: A second Troy.

Scot: Yes. I'm Scot. I bring the BS. The MD to my BS, Dr. Troy Madsen.

Troy: Hey, Scot. Good to be here, and excited to figure out how I can have a second Troy here.

Scot: Here's a "Who Cares About Men's Health" convert, Producer Mitch.

Mitch: Hey there.

Scot: And our guide for intuitive eating today, Thunder Jalili, who is Professor of Nutrition and Integrative Physiology in the College of Health at University of Utah. Thunder, are you an intuitive eater? Would you consider yourself such?

Thunder: That's a great question. I would say in some ways yes, but probably not by the strict definition of intuitive eating.

Scot: Okay. And I think that's probably the first starting point. What is intuitive eating? How is this concept defined when you hear people talking about it?

Thunder: Yeah, so intuitive eating is not necessarily . . . It's not a diet plan or a strict menu of foods to eat. It's rather a pattern of eating that basically is designed to promote a healthy attitude towards food and a healthy attitude towards body image and health.

The idea is that you're not really restricted to a specific diet, that you don't have a list of foods you can eat and foods you have to avoid. It's more just kind of, "Don't think food is evil. Have a good relationship with it." Kind of eat what you want, and just keep some health in mind. Eat when you're hungry. Don't eat when you're not hungry. Stop when you're full. Don't overeat just because the food tastes good.

Yeah, so that's kind of the foundation of intuitive eating. And it's not new. It's been around for probably 25 years, if not more.

Troy: See, this sounds . . . As I hear you saying this, just the basic description sounds more like the college student diet. Seriously, though, it's kind of like eat when you're hungry, eat whatever you want, but it's not like you have structured meals.

When I think of that, I think of college. It's just like, "Hey, just eat what you can." It's not like you have a lot of money to go buy a bunch of food anyway. So you just kind of find food wherever you can, go to whatever meeting you can find that has free pizza and eat it, and that's how you get by.

Thunder: Maybe not exactly like that because, I mean, they still . . . Intuitive eating, you can have set meals and you can be social with your eating and you can enjoy and find satisfaction. I feel like college was a little bit more like scrounging in the alley for whatever you can find. This isn't exactly that.

But I think the biggest thing with it, or at least the way I see it, is that some people really get hung up with food from a behavioral and from a body image standpoint. And the idea of intuitive eating is that food is not your enemy. Food is not your crutch or your feel-good thing. Food is food. And so I think that's a big part of it.

So people that may have potentially issues with disordered eating or using food as a coping mechanism for stress or other things in life, intuitive eating would tell them, "No food is food. This is not what it's used for." So that's a big part of it.

Scot: That was going to be kind of the next question. Who should consider intuitive eating? When you hear it mentioned on social media, a lot of times I don't really hear it mentioned who would benefit from it, who wouldn't benefit from it. It sounds like somebody who has potential eating disorders or a bad relationship with food might want to consider it. Are there other people that should consider it?

Thunder: I think what you said was right in line. I think people who tend to obsess about food and obsess about what they can eat and what they can't eat . . . And let me back up for a second. I guess we all have a little bit of obsession about that, right? We don't want to eat an entire chocolate cake because we know it's bad, but we'd like to have a slice.

Scot: Or we'd like to eat an entire chocolate cake even though we know that it's bad.

Thunder: Right, but we know that it's bad. So maybe you would have that cake or that dessert in moderation. Maybe it's Christmas, someone made a great cake or a pie and I'm going to have it. But if it's a random Tuesday, maybe you're not going to have that cake or pie. You're not going to go looking for it.

Some people, though, if it's Christmas, they won't even have that slice of cake or pie, right? Because it's like a banned food. It's a food that they shouldn't be eating because they're watching their sugar. And so intuitive eating would tell you, "Don't worry about it. It's a special occasion. Go ahead and have it."

So I think people that are too kind of tied in to what they eat as a way to maintain their weight, and a way to maybe cope with their emotions, and maybe just a way to find some self-worth, they can benefit from it because this is disconnecting the idea of eating and who you are as a person.

Mitch: Thunder, I was wondering, you mentioned that it kind of was . . . You keep using these terms like "feelings of food," "this kind of relationship with food." What are some of the negative things that can happen with people that have a negative relationship with food?

I mean, it's not always just the go-to when you think of eating disorders. I've also heard of things like . . . was it orthorexia where people super constrict, or regulated, etc.? What are some of the potential nutritional problems that people can face?

Thunder: Yeah, I think actually people who have tendencies to orthorexia, they could probably benefit from some elements of intuitive eating.

So whenever food is used as a coping mechanism or self-medication or something, some of the negative things that can happen kind of on both sides of the spectrum . . . One is you can not eat much food, because there are so many problems with this type of food or that type of food. So maybe you can get into problems with malnutrition. Maybe you can go down the eating disorder road.

The other side of it is food is used as a coping mechanism to help you deal with problems or feel better. Then it possibly can get into binge eating scenarios. So there are kind of issues on both ends of the spectrum.

I mean, intuitive eating aside, I think in general everyone can benefit from taking a step back and just recognizing food as a tool we have for health, nutrition, disease prevention. But it's the fuel to make us go. It's not much more beyond that.

If there are issues that one would have, then maybe they need to deal with them through a different mechanism and not food, maybe through counseling or therapy or anything along those lines.

Scot: So what I'm getting from this conversation is I thought intuitive eating was this innate ability of our bodies to know what kind of food we need to eat or would want to eat, which I don't know that that's necessarily what you're saying, because traditionally high-carbohydrate, high-fat foods would be what we intuitively would have craved at one point. But it sounds like it's more of a relationship with food, not looking at food as good or bad.

And maybe the part that you're tapping into, the natural thing is asking yourself the question before you eat, "Am I hungry now? Or am I consuming this food for a different reason?"

I can certainly tell you that at night, I'll be in the fridge thinking I want something. And I pause and I ask myself, "Well, I'm not even hungry. What am I doing?" So I'm combating boredom or, I don't know, trying to console myself because there's nothing good on TV. I don't know what's going on. I mean, that kind of sounds maybe more of what intuitive eating is like.

Thunder: Yes. And you actually hit on one of the . . . There are different rules of intuitive eating, or not rules, but guidelines. One of them is to honor your feelings without using food. So what you just described, Scot, is right on with that. Why are you looking for that snack? It has nothing to do with food. It's for another reason.

Scot: And there are times when I'm working on something that's really hard during the workday that's taking a lot of brainpower and my brain is rebelling. It doesn't want to think anymore, so I find myself almost like a zombie getting up, going downstairs to the fridge, looking for something to nosh on. I think it's just an excuse to do something else, right? And for some reason, I go to food as opposed to other things.

Troy: It sounds like too, Thunder, as you're talking about this, initially as I was hearing about it, I thought, "Well, it just kind of sounds like it's this free-for-all all thing where you just kind of say, 'Hey, I'm just going to eat what I want to eat, when I want to eat.'"

But it sounds like there is some structure to it as well, I guess kind of some parameters, where you basically have to at least have some thought process behind why you're eating and asking yourself, "Am I eating to fill an emotional need or am I eating because I'm hungry?" Is that part of it you're seeing as well?

Thunder: Yeah, absolutely. And that's really the bottom line. You eat to fill a physiological need. And there is a little bit of emotional, kind of social part of it too because you're allowed to enjoy what you eat. You're allowed to find satisfaction in what you eat and not feel guilty, because, "Oh, I had pasta. That's so bad." So that's part of intuitive eating.

And there's another part that we actually haven't really touched on. Exercise is part of the whole guidelines of intuitive eating, that you have to make sure to move, to do things, to find exercise. That's part of this whole package of guidelines.

Troy: And just also hearing about it, that seems like probably an essential element. I can see this really working well for people who are very active and burning a lot of calories, and they really don't have to give a lot of thought to what they eat.

Is that kind of what you're seeing in terms of people who are successful with this? Or are you seeing standard office workers who are lucky to get 30 minutes of exercise three times a week, who are also having success with this? I guess who is this really working for?

Thunder: Honestly, I'm not really sure because I don't have a lot of personal experience with it, with people who follow this and what their long-term prognosis is. So I don't know.

But I know just in general, people who are too amped up about food could benefit from listening to some of these guidelines.

In the beginning, you asked me, "Do you follow intuitive eating?" And I said, "Kind of." The reason why I say kind of is because there are a lot of foods I enjoy, but in general, I don't eat a lot of sugar, I don't eat a lot of desserts, and things like that. And there are times where my intuition is like, "Well, I'd love to have that," but I don't and I choose something different instead.

Now, the alternative I choose is still something I like and something I enjoy, but it's not necessarily that cookie or whatever.

So if I was a pure intuitive eater, I wouldn't worry about it. I would just say, "Yeah, I'm going to have that cookie." So that's why I'm not totally into it.

But there are other things where I really do follow those guidelines, like I like to exercise and I feel food is food. I don't use it as an emotional crutch or those other things we were talking about. So I guess I'm kind of partly there, and maybe a lot of us are partly there.

Scot: So one of the things you talked about, and it's come up a few times, is this notion of "Am I hungry or am I not hungry?" And that is a cornerstone to then deciding, "Why am I trying to eat?"

From personal experience, I can say there are times I think I'm hungry, like, "Oh, I'm hungry," but really, I'm not. One of those might be even . . . I've heard that if you're thirsty, it can manifest as hunger. So sometimes I'll drink water. But sometimes, like I said, I'll think I'm hungry because obviously I'm going down to the kitchen to get something, so I must be hungry.

Is that something that needs to be recalibrated in some people, or is this just a "bring attention to it and you can figure it out" sort of thing? How could somebody that's struggling with that figure out when they're truly hungry or not?

Thunder: Yeah, definitely something that has to be considered is if you're hungry, respect the hunger. Get something to eat. But really ask yourself, "Am I hungry?"

And a classic example here is if you're in a social situation and you go out to eat with friends, or you meet friends somewhere and everyone's getting food, and you're not really that hungry, but you just kind of get food anyway to go along with it, maybe intuitive eating would tell you, "Well, you're not really hungry. Don't get anything. Don't worry about it."

And then the other side is at the end, if you've eaten some food and you're full, you kind of respect the fact that you're full and just be done, even if other people are eating or even if you have the option to get more, like in a buffet or whatever. Respect when you're full.

Troy: And that's a part of this that really does make sense to me too, just the fact that we so often eat just because, "Okay, it's lunchtime. It's time to eat," or, "It's dinnertime," or social reasons, or whatever external cues are triggering that where we're like, "Okay, I need to eat because it's that time or because I'm in this situation." But the fact that this really pushes, "Hey, eat when you're hungry and don't eat otherwise," that definitely makes a lot of sense.

Thunder: Yeah, and stop when you're full, right? We've all been there where we're full, but there's still food available and we're like, "Yeah, I'll have more."

Troy: I know. Yeah, at some point in my life, I need to get over that 1980s guilt trip of, "You have to eat all your food. Look at these starving children." At some point, I need to get beyond that.

Thunder: Troy, remember that for your children.

Troy: Exactly.

Thunder: And also remember their stomach is like the size of a walnut.

Troy: Yeah, exactly.

Scot: So I've got a couple of things. I can hear an application of this is kind of making sure that you're in tune with your intuition about being hungry or not. In a work scenario, you go in the break room, if there happens to be food in there, sometimes we'll mindlessly just grab whatever happens to be there whether it's healthy or not. But it's extra calories, right? So, over time, you do that enough times, now all of a sudden you've eaten more than your body is really telling you that you need, and you can see the pounds start to come on.

I guess, again, it's coming into contact, getting into touch with, "Why am I picking this up? Is it because I'm really hungry or is it for other reasons?"

Thunder: Yeah, absolutely.

Troy: Break rooms are so bad. Sorry to jump in. I now work in a setting where there is a break room and there's always food in there. And it's amazing just how that pattern can develop. So it's like, "Oh, I've got a break. I'm going to go get some food. Oh, yeah, that sure tasted great. Maybe I'll get another." Thirty minutes later, "I'll go grab some more."

Scot: "Time for another break."

Thunder: Everybody likes free food. A lot of times, the choices aren't necessarily the things we shouldn't be eating, but it's there.

Troy: It's there, yeah. "A patient brought it in. Well, I have to eat it. It was so kind of them to do that."

Again, talking about all those external cues that really get in the way of . . . But I think that's part of it, too. I'm guessing part of the intuitive eating is learning, number one, to recognize what truly is hunger versus what's habit, or whatever else.

Scot: Hunger versus habit. I like that a lot.

Troy: Hunger versus habit. That's probably part of the intuition and developing that sort of intuition to recognize hunger, and recognize when you're really not hungry, and to not eat then.

Thunder: And allow yourself to eat when you're hungry. Don't shortchange it. "Okay, I'm hungry. I'm only going to have this and that's it." That's not part of intuitive eating. You're hungry? Okay, eat something. Don't worry about it. When you're full, you're full, stop.

Scot: Let's talk about that fullness thing, too. So how can I determine when I'm full? I heard some deal one time that actually you are full before it's sent to your brain that you're full. Is there any truth to that? You should stop when you're still a little bit hungry because 10, 15 minutes later, that's when the brain catches up to the stomach and is like, "Hey, we're fine, actually."

Thunder: I mean, I've heard people talk about that. The system is definitely linked. I don't know what the lag time is, but if you just eat at a reasonable pace, you will be full and your brain will tell you you're full.

Scot: Could you guys hear in Thunder's voice, he's like, "Oh, here's Scot with this what-if scenario again"?

Thunder: I mean, we're looking for these fine timelines to try to define it out. And that's the opposite of intuitive eating, trying to find these timelines of, "When am I going to be full? I need to anticipate it." I would just say to eat a moderate pace. It's not rocket science. You'll feel when the stomach is getting full.

Troy: Well, that's probably a good piece of it, too, to eat at a moderate pace. And I can say my pace of eating is generally fairly rapid. I think partly that comes from being the oldest of six children, where it was about survival of the fittest. You've got to eat fast to get enough food. So that's probably a part of it also.

I think like you said, Scot, sometimes maybe we do. Yeah, I don't know about the actual relay time from your stomach to your brain, but there's definitely a piece of that where you eat really, really eat fast and then you're really, really full.

Scot: WebMD, as I was doing a little bit of research before this conversation, had another aspect of intuitive eating I want to throw out there, because I find this kind of interesting.

They say when you eat intuitively, you also get rid of the idea you need to lose or gain weight so you can look a certain way. The idea of intuitive eating is to focus on foods that work best for your overall physical and mental health.

And I like this because over the course of our podcast, we have come to realize that men tend to think about diet and exercise as a way to look a certain way physically. And then we discount the fact that I could eat in a certain way, I can focus on foods that make me feel good, that I enjoy. Let me tell you, too much sugar does not make me feel good, right? It's good at the time, but . . .

Thunder: It feels great at the time.

Scot: Yeah, but afterwards, some people develop gastrointestinal things. It might upset their stomach. The sugar causes people to be anxious, or whatever it does.

So I like this idea of just thinking about foods that work best for you and not thinking about, "What foods are going to help me lose weight or what foods are going to help me bulk up?" What foods work best for me? What do you guys think of that thought?

Troy: I love it. And I think maybe that's part of that intuition as well. Just, "Hey, I eat this because I feel good after I eat it. I don't feel weighed down. I don't feel that sugar high and then it just crashes. I just feel good." And certainly that mental health component of it. So I like that.

And again, I think that's part of the intuition you probably need to develop if you're doing this, is recognizing the foods that do make you feel good and remembering to stick to those foods.

Mitch: I really jived with this idea with intuitive eating to change up this idea that certain foods are good, certain foods are bad, eat when you're hungry, etc.

As someone who has always kind of struggled with my weight in one way or another, there were times when you're trying to lose some weight, start of the year type stuff, whatever, that it didn't matter that I was hungry. It's like, "No, if I eat, I'm going to gain weight. I will continue to be hungry until it is a time for food."

And so this idea of factoring in also your mental health and how you're feeling and how the food makes you feel both sides mentally and physiologically, I really appreciate that.

Thunder: Yeah, and it can be very liberating I think for people who don't come from that space and now discover this pattern of eating. I think it's very liberating.

Scot: Speaking of liberating, we just came off the holidays. So I'm curious, in terms of this discussion we're having about intuitive eating, how do you think you did over the holidays? Were you being truly intuitive with the food choices you made? Troy, how about you?

Troy: I have no idea. I can't say I all-out binged, but I will say I got a pack of Oreos family size. It did not last very long.

Mitch: Man.

Thunder: You broke it with Oreos?

Troy: What's that?

Thunder: You broke your fast with Oreos? That's pathetic.

Troy: I love Oreos.

Mitch: Oreos are delicious.

Troy: I love Oreos.

Scot: Thunder is offended.

Troy: I'm sorry to offend you, Thunder.

Thunder: I'm offended. Your sugar allocation, you blew it on the worst possible choice.

Troy: If I were to blow my sugar allocation on anything, it would be on Oreos. And I just blew it out of the water. I had so many Oreos. They were so good.

Thunder: All right. Well, I know what your kryptonite is.

Troy: It is my kryptonite. Oreos are my kryptonite without question.

Scot: I'll tell you the downside of binging over the holidays, which I think I tend to do a little bit, is it's hard coming off that. You know what I mean? I'm better if I just don't have it at all. I'm going to spend the next couple of weeks going through withdrawals where it's going to be really hard, I think.

Thunder: Getting the shakes.

Troy: I haven't had that so much, though.

Scot: It's a horrible mental thing.

Troy: To me, it kind of just felt like a good vacation. It was kind of like, "That was fun. I enjoyed it. That was really good. But I'm back on track." And that's kind of where I am right now. I kind of enjoyed it, I've got to say.

Thunder: You guys would know how much intuitive eating you do without realizing it. If you think back to the holidays, can you remember all the different sweets and things that you had? Or you can't really remember the specific ones, but you just remember you had some?

Scot: Oh, I can remember the specific ones. Oh, yeah.

Troy: I can give you a list, Thunder.

Thunder: You guys are not intuitive.

Troy: I can give you a list.

Thunder: Yeah, you're not intuitive if you can make a list, because intuitive people would be like, "I had some, but it was part of it. I don't remember exactly what." That's more the intuitive mindset.

Scot: How is that more intuitive? I don't understand that.

Thunder: Because you don't have this list of acceptable and banned foods, so when you get the banned ones it gets seared into your brain.

Scot: Oh, okay. All right. I don't know if it's intuitive eating or not, but for me, my weakness is these caramels, these dark chocolate caramels that come in these tubs of all things. It's crazy. They're tubs. And then also pie. I love apple pie or a fruit pie around the holidays.

I will say I was proud of myself, and this probably is not intuitive eating, but I did ration that. Normally, it's just pie all the time. Breakfast pie? Sure. Dinner pie? Yeah. Lunchtime pie? You bet.

Troy: Pie?

Thunder: What about snack pie?

Scot: "I just had pie. I think I'm going to celebrate by having dessert pie." This year, I did kind of . . . And maybe this is intuitive because I came to realize I don't feel good when I do that, right? So I limited it to once-a-day pie. I don't know.

Thunder. That's intuitive.

Troy: An entire pie or just a piece?

Scot: No, just a slice.

Thunder: The other part of this is how big was the slice?

Scot: It was very reasonable, I thought. It was a reasonably sized slice.

Thunder: "Here's a pie. Half for you, half for me."

Scot: No. It wasn't that at all.

Mitch: It is interesting. Over the holidays, Jonathan's family is very much an eat-all-day-until-you-want-to-die type of family, and I'm not. I don't come from that. And this year, I did kind of speak up where it was just like, "No, I'm not going to have a second helping of whatever because I am stuffed. I am full. I can't do anymore." And it was just this kind of weird . . . I felt better. I wasn't miserable that next day.

Troy: Well, it's funny too because . . . You said that, Mitch. "I'm stuffed. I'm full." We feel obligated to say, "I am stuffed and I am full."

Mitch: Yes. "Please, no more."

Troy: In Spanish, they use the term satisfied. "I'm satisfied." And that's the question. Are you satisfied? ¿Estás satisfecho? "Estoy satisfecho." I'm satisfied. It's that simple. I think it's part of our culture too where it's like I've got to be stuffed and ready to vomit before I can stop eating.

Thunder: Yeah, I really like that satisfied thing. That's a great way of looking at it. And sometimes it doesn't matter . . . Say you have your transgressions, this and that. If you just don't eat a lot, you can still be full and then it doesn't matter what you ate, you feel okay. It's only that getting stuffed. Even if it's with really good foods, overeating still makes you feel like crap.

Scot: Well, this has been a great conversation because intuitive eating was not so intuitive. It turned out to be something that I did not suspect at all.

I think we should summarize the big bullet points here as we wrap this up. I think intuitive eating is asking yourself the question, "Am I eating because I'm hungry, or I'm eating for some other reason?" And if it's for some other reason, then perhaps you might want to reconsider food as the thing you're going to do and maybe address those other things.

What were some of the other big takeaways for you guys?

Thunder: I would say if you're hungry, then go ahead and eat. Don't feel guilty. And when you're full, be sensitive and stop.

Scot: That's good. And in Mitch's situation that he even talked about, in between meals, if you feel hungry, have a little snack that makes you feel good. I think in the long run, that can prevent you from making poor choices later on down the road as well when you're in this state of starvation.

Thunder: Yeah, and you just go crazy.

Mitch: I do little snacks now, and I do an apple or a little bit of hummus or something like that, and just how much better I feel feeding myself when I'm hungry.

Scot: Stuff you enjoy, but yet feeding yourself when you're hungry, you feel better too.

Were there any other big high points that we want? Intuitive eating is not just eating whatever you want. I think intuitive eating is not assigning good or bad to foods, because I think we can get into . . . I know I've gotten into situations where then eating is just not fun anymore, right?

Over the holidays, we had some sourdough bread, and you tend to think bread is not a good food, right? Well, in moderation with a lot of other healthy choices, it's fine. And it adds a little bit of enjoyment back. So quit labeling good or bad.

Other big takeaways?

Thunder: I would say the part about not using food as a coping mechanism or a way to deal with your feelings or things like that. Just food is food. Find other ways to deal with anything that happens to be bothering you at the time, whether it's . . .

Scot: Or as a distraction. I like to use it as a distraction.

Troy: And I really like that concept too of just saying, "How do I feel after I eat this?" Not necessarily while I'm eating it, because there are plenty of foods that feel great while I'm eating it. But how do I feel 30 minutes later?

Remembering that, and just remembering, "Hey, these are the foods that I feel good after I eat them." It's not like, "I feel good about myself," but just my body feels good, and then trying to stick to those things.

Thunder: Yeah. So it requires a little bit of paying attention and effort, I guess, to start being intuitive.

Scot: Right. There's some mindfulness stuff going on here. You have to start asking yourself some questions about all sorts of assumed things that you've done or behaviors that you engage in that you don't think about.

Thunder, thanks for defining this. For our listeners, here's your challenge. Start listening to your intuition when it comes to eating. Maybe pick one of those major points that we brought out there and ask yourself the question, "How am I doing on this? Or is there a way I can implement this into my life that will make my life better, make me feel better perhaps, or whatever?"

And we would love to hear your thoughts. Did we cover it pretty well, if you happen to be an intuitive eating expert? Is there such a thing? I'm sure there is. You can reach out to us at hello@thescoperadio.com.

Thanks for listening, and thanks for caring about men's health.